Amber Christoferson · VP, DickersonBakker Executive Search Group | With a career path that’s taken her from United Way to the Fortune 500 and back to the for-good sector as VP of DickersonBakker’s Executive Search Group, Amber is leading the conversation around nonprofit retention.

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Today, we’re talking about a serious subject that has inspired a seriously enlightened discussion: Retention in the for-good sector. If you’ve been working in this sector for any length of time, you’re probably aware that keeping mission-oriented staff is harder than ever.

But why? If you’re a nonprofit leader seeing your staff burn out and move away from causes that they’re passionate about, what can you do? Today’s guest, Amber Christoferson, is here to help you answer that question. With a career path that’s taken her from United Way to the Fortune 500 and back to the for-good sector as VP of DickersonBakker’s Executive Search Group, Amber is leading the conversation around this crucial issue.

Starting with understanding your organization’s identity and needs, focusing on setting your staff up for success, and building a culture of retention, Amber leans on the DickersonBakker 2023 Nonprofit Leadership and Fundraising study that reveals significant disconnects between the folks working the for-good frontlines and their leadership.

Among all the questions is one sure thing: the best way to solve this problem is to bridge the communication gap, so join the conversation!

Hello and welcome to this episode of Nonstop Nonprofit!

Friends, we are facing a donor retention crisis that must be addressed. Today's episode Is about a different retention crisis. The retention of our peers and our colleagues in the for-good sector. See anyone in the for-good space recognizes that our staff, our colleagues, our employees are burning out and moving away from causes they're passionate about. And it seems like retaining mission-oriented staff is harder than ever.  What can we do about it? I'm glad you asked. Because today’s guest, Amber Christoferson, VP of Dickerson Bakker's Executive Search Group is here to help you answer that question.

With a career path that spans from the United Way to a Fortune 500 company and back to the for-good sector, Amber is leading the conversation around this crucial issue.

Starting with understanding your organization’s identity and needs, focusing on setting your staff up for success, and building a culture of retention, Amber leans on the Dickerson Bakker 2023 Nonprofit Leadership and Fundraising study that reveals a significant disconnect between the folks working the for-good frontlines and their leadership.

Among all the questions is one sure thing: the best way to solve the problem is to bridge the communication gap, so join the conversation!
 

David Schwab Amber, thank you again for joining us today. I've been looking forward to this conversation for weeks now, because today we need to have a critical conversation. And it is the conversation about the retention crisis facing the fort good sector, but not the retention crisis most people are thinking about and talking about. I'm not talking about the donor retention crisis. I'm talking about the talent retention crisis. And with your unique experience and set of skills and background in this sector, I am so excited to dig into this topic with you, to look at it from a leader and executive directors perspective, but then also from the perspective of the the producers and the individual contributors and the people who make up the, the workforce of and the core of the nonprofit professional. So just thank you again for for joining us today for setting aside time and having this conversation. But before we get too deep, too far in, I say again, thank you for joining us today. I want to give you a chance. Just quickly introduce yourself. Let our audience know who you are, a little bit about yourself. And, question I always, I always start these episodes with because it's so interesting to hear, what got you into the for good sector?

Amber Christoferson Oh, that's a good question. Well, Amber Christoferson, I lead our executive search function here at Dickerson Bakker. We're a full, nonprofit consulting group that really handles just about any need of any for good organization. Been here at Dickerson Bakker since 2019. Prior to that, served in fortune 500 recruiting for Home Depot, Pandora media, and prior to that was a fundraiser, working with United Way primarily. And this role that I play at Dickerson Baker allows me to take all of my passions and things that I love to do, mainly working with people, consulting with people, and I get to do that all in my I kind of have my dream job if I'm being honest. And I know that might sound like kind of hokey, but it's true. It's taken all my gifts, put it into one role, and I work at a firm with amazing people that you know many of as well. What got me into nonprofit is my grandmother and more to come on. That is I just have been inspired lately to really tell her story and bring her legacy to life. So my grandmother start worked with United Way of America for many years, and she was the one who really pioneered, major giving for United Way. She kind of saw, at a certain point of her career, just the decline in workplace giving, which was the bread and butter of United Way and said, hey, we're really missing an opportunity here with, high net worth individuals. And so the Alexis de Tocqueville Society, $1 million roundtable, and Mega Gifts was born. And she kind of pioneered that internally for United Way of America. So she always spoke about her work so passionately. And after a retail career, which is where my career started, I called her. I'll never forget the conversation, but I said, I know there's gotta be something I can do with United Way. Specifically, I wanted to be there because that's where she was, and that's where I saw this passion and excitement come from. So I said, isn't there something with my skill set that I could do? And she said, absolutely, you'd be an amazing fundraiser. I never worked in major gifts, oddly enough, while I was with United Way, but, really work to do a lot of training for, other fundraisers and things of that, of that nature. But that's really where I fell into. It was just her passion for just working with donors in a really intentional and personal way, and all for the good of our society around us. She had these dazzling dreams that she brought, donors into. And so I wanted to be part of that. And that's what started my nonprofit career. So, yeah, the short answer of how I got into nonprofit is Ruth Maldonado.

David Schwab Well, thank you, Ruth, if you're listening. Thank you, Ruth, for the gift of Amber being in the for good sector. Amber, I am itching to to dig in and I want to get started. Dickerson Baker has put out an incredible study on talent and retention and and this unspoken crisis that we're here to talk about today. I know it's been a few months now since the study came out, and you and your team have been having a lot of conversations about it. But just for the sake of sake of our audience, many probably haven't had a chance to be introduced to the report or hear, hear your takeaways. So 2 or 3, what are the 2 or 3 key takeaways from that report that as you've been digging in and having conversations both with executives and nonprofit professionals alike, what has been resonating from that, that takeaway.

Amber Christoferson I think the biggest. Thing, it's almost hard to kind of put it into like three pillars. So I'm going to do my best to kind of just like lift to the surface the things that are kind of, I think most striking and some of it the reason why it's kind of hard to put it in three pillars is because so many of the things kind of bleed into one another. They all impact each other in some way, shape or form. But I would say one of the biggest things that we're seeing is just this huge divide between what the leadership of an organization sees as its strengths and weaknesses, and what our frontline fundraisers see as the strengths and weaknesses, or how they experience working in that organization, how they experience the leadership of that organization is very different, and what is perceived to be a strength versus a weakness between leadership and those frontline staff are very different. And I think it kind of gets to the crux of what we're talking about today is the retention piece. And in the nonprofit sector, back when I was still in fundraising, 13, 14 years ago, everyone was asking the question as to why is there this revolving door within fundraising? Why is the turnover so high in fundraising? And I remember at certain points they likened fundraisers to salespeople. They're like, well, it's because, you know, it's like sales and, you know, and it's just kind of this churn and burn. It's this, this revolving door. It's it's kind of goes with, you know, the role that just wasn't true. Maybe there's some like little inkling of truth in there. But really, what our report shows is really what's at the base of that turnover that we see and that lack of retention in that is that. And I see this a lot in our work with executive search. Right. We're brought on to fill a seat. You know, there's let's say a vice president of development. And that person left. Well, now we need a vice president of development. What hasn't happened in the past in a lot of these scenarios is asking some really important and sometimes difficult questions of the leadership about the organization to kind of really understand at this place, in this organization's history, what is it that they need? Who are they? What are the what do they have to offer to this incoming person? How is this department structured to support and set this person up for success? So I say all of this again, I can talk about this for hours, but at the end of the day it's like, do we really know who we are? Do we really know what we need? Are we setting up an environment that that kind of allows for candor and being able to collaborate and share ideas when they might not be popular? And so there is a communication divide. There's a perception divide. And all of that is felt in a number of ways. And like I said in my work, I see it in hiring practices. I see it in the perception that a a hiring manager or a CEO kind of looks at bringing this new person in. It's usually very much placed on, we need this person to do this, this, this, this and this. And so we have to kind of throw back and hold the mirror to them and say, okay, how are they going to be able to do that? Is that realistic? How has that worked in the past? And that leads into another area of that research, which too is are we even measuring the right? Are we measuring the right data to really show our effectiveness and what we're actually trying to do? And does the leadership and frontline or development leadership kind of both see the same priorities, and are we working towards those priorities and how are we measuring that? So it's a big ball of wax if you will. But but I think as you read what we discovered in this, any person who's been in fundraising and or leadership is going, yeah, I knew that. Right. Like there's this sense like you kind of you kind of knew, but the findings of the report and just, you know, how we have kind of organize this information to share really does speak to. And I think it's very relatable data that makes it even that much more actionable. So like I said, there's so much. And in this year we're going to be doing more to address what can leaders do? What can people serving and nonprofit organizations we can nonprofiteers do right in their role to kind of help solve some of these, you know, solve some of these challenges and see some of these opportunities that have come from this report. So there's going to be more to come that we're going to do that really kind of focus in like what's the barrier? What's the barrier to doing these things. So yes, a very robust report that we could probably spend hours talking about, especially I, I would love to hear, you know, from your perspective how that all landed with you. But I've seen these things play out in my own work in nonprofit, but also in the seat that I sit now, which is helping organizations hire.

David Schwab So, Amber, if I'm hearing what you're you're bringing back from that report, there is a culture crisis within the for good sector and not necessarily toxic culture or toxic leadership, or we're not going to we're not unpacking that because that is that is an issue in and of itself that for most instances, most cases is is isolated case by case. It's not a it's not an industrywide issue, but industrywide, it sounds like we have a culture issue where we're not setting our talent up for success when they come on, and then we're surprised when they churn. And I think if if we have leaders listening to this, that's probably a really hard thing to stop and grasp. And like you talked about, look, take a hard look in the mirror and go, why did this director or VP or C-suite level leader that I just hired turn in 18 months? Knowing that it takes in a seat at that level? It takes 12 months, really, to understand what the job is. So that person worked for six months effectively before they turned, which means they probably started looking for a new job within their first nine months, which means they probably recognized within the first 3 to 4 months. I don't think this is going to be good, right? So when we take that hard look in the mirror as leaders, as executive directors, what are some of the questions a leader can ask themself to start understanding? I might have a culture problem. I might not be setting up my team for success in the way that I think I am.

Amber Christoferson Yeah, well, one thing that I have to say is that sometimes you need a coach, right? I mean, just think about how we do life, think about times where we just we need to seek out another voice. We needed someone who we could just bounce things off of. If you don't have that person, you need that person. And if you have some serious question marks about your culture, there are people that specialize in that. And sometimes you do, because sometimes that's unpacking a history. Sometimes it's unpacking a culture that you stepped into. Right. And then you kind of got got, you know, into the, into the mix of how things just kind of tend to work there. And I also think that even how we deal with our donors, it requires more focus on the relationship. Right? So it's no different really with our employees and our staff. And, and then that relationship with leadership. Right. And so I think a report like this is a good one. We kind of have some questions embedded in that says, how approachable am I? How do I respond when someone, one of my leaders comes to me and says, you know, kind of respectively disagrees? Do I set up room for that to happen? Because to your point, this isn't about our own personal flaws. We all have that right. None of us is perfect. I know here at Dickerson Bakker, one thing I love about the culture is that we are a culture of continuous improvement that suggests that we are not perfect, we do not have to figure it out. And we we're not striving to be the best. We're always striving to be better. And so that just fosters a safe environment to kind of have some conversations to cut the the whole fear of of coming to someone and being rejected or patted down. Right? Because we all are after the same thing. We all just want to do better. So I say, if you're a leader listening to this and this resonates with you and you think that there may be a culture issue, but you haven't the slightest clue where to start, maybe consider, you know, working with with a coach. I know that with the work in executive search, when you work with us, it's not just about getting the role filled. There's a whole consulting piece that happens before we even build a profile of the right candidate. We have to first build the profile of who the organization is, who the leader is, and how that all works. Right. So that consulting piece, that coaching piece is big. Work with your leaders. Look across the leaders in your organization who tends to, you know, who has strong cultures within their teams. How can you lean on them and help them speak into the overall or, you know, culture of the organization? But I think at the end of the day, what all of this suggests is a certain level of an openness and, you know, to receive feedback and then to be able to take action on that. And the only thing worse than any of that is, you know, knowing something and not taking action because that, as we know, will kind of blow up in your face. And I think the market is one right now where if you're not listening, you're losing. So you've got to be always listening. You have to be just really putting yourself in a place to, you know, set the tone of the culture in your organization. And if you want that to be a culture of retention, understanding what are those things you need to put in place to to make it that way? Rather than talking about what you want the culture to be, there's going to take some action behind that. So, those are just a few things that I would say.

David Schwab Yeah, I like that. It's, we are past the point where we can keep talking about the retention issue, and we need to do something about it. So I think one of the things that is going to be so critical to combat this retention crisis is showing as leaders that we're invested in our people, not just in what they can do for us or for our organization, but actually invested in them. We know them. We know their career goals. We know their career trajectories. We've helped them think through what the next step is and whether or not that is with our organization, because sometimes it's okay for people to take a step into a new role at a new company or a new organization, because that's the best fit for the growth of their career. But what are some tangible things leaders can do to start investing in their people and either building or rebuilding that culture that first brought those people to that organization?

Amber Christoferson Budget for it organizations. Budget. They're very serious about budgeting, right? And so many times, a lot of times, doing any kind of budgeting for any kind of individual development for their staff, it it is more than an afterthought. It just simply doesn't exist. But if you protect financing for it, you will do it. So I think having a real commitment to retention. And then what does that look like? I'll tell you, it's I don't know, it's kind of amazing that this just only recently dawned on me, having been in fundraising myself, there's just like little to no training, for fundraisers. Right. There's really no fear. Certainly not from a, kind of onboarding perspective. Right. There's a ton of certifications, but kind of real training, ongoing professional development, something that's within our our sector that really promotes that on a broad scale and that really, really supports the fundraiser in their, you know, kind of in their journey of their career. So, you know, investing in ways that just help somebody to become better and better in their craft and what they do. Having a plan in place that kind of says, hey, where are you really wanting to hone and sharpen your skills? And then how can we support that? How can we make sure that that happens and put that in again? I can, tell you all day why it's amazing to work where I work. But one of the things is that there is professional development built into our annual review plan, and I was able this past year to do a sales training that I've wanted to do for years, like preceding me coming to the firm, and I was able to do that. And it's all part of my, you know, a part of my development. I didn't have to figure out how to make that happen on my own. It was something that was embraced, you know, by the firm. And, and I was able to do that. So finding more ways to really kind of understand where somebody wants to grow or where they feel like they need some additional support and putting a plan in place. And part of putting that plan in place is having a budget for whether it be, you know, employee culture and engagement, employee retention, because we all know we've seen tons of figures about the cost of turnover to an organic. It's much, much more than, you know, budgeting for to, you know, ensure that your staff have these opportunities to kind of grow and develop in their careers. So I would say that those are some key things. I've seen a shift, a really positive shift in the for good industry in terms of, you know, kind of coming to competitive market with respect to benefits and some of those things and even kind of right sizing, some salaries. I've seen some organizations that, you know, for a long time have really been paying at a bare minimum, kind of finally come to the market. So I've seen some really good positive shifts there. But I think when we talk about retention and culture, I think there is another line item that that just needs to be there to be able to put a word to action. Yeah. And, you know, make it happen.

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David Schwab There's a couple podcast guests we've had on in the past that I'm going to talk about their episodes here. So, first we had Beth Fisher from Mel Trotter Ministries on about a year ago, and she was telling us, and I've had different conversations outside of that podcast, too, where, Mel Trotter Ministries had a program for, helping homeless people get off the streets, rehabilitate, combat addiction, all of the things that are core to that type of homeless shelter and ministry. But also they had a job training program, and they had set a benchmark for themselves for the performance of their job training program, that everyone who graduated from that program would have a job making a specific dollar amount per hour, because that was livable wage in the area. And then they realized the people facilitating that program weren't making what they had deemed a livable wage in the area. So they said right there on the spot, everyone is going to make a livable wage that works here. No one will work here and make under what we deem a livable wage for the people who come through our programs and graduate. And that was wildly unpopular with their donors, but showed radical leadership and people who actually cared about, like, leaders who actually cared about their people. And as we're thinking about it, it reminds me of another guest we had several years ago named Tiffany Casey, and we were talking about how the retention crisis, the talent retention crisis ultimately, and we've talked about it a little bit here. Amber ultimately comes down to a culture issue, but culture not being ping pong tables or a keg on tap, or for a lot of organizations, keg on tap is not a thing. But I have walked through a couple four good offices and they have like cold brew on tap, or they have different things or different features in their office, but those are nice. But culture is so much deeper than that. And I think if I'm sitting as a leader listening to this and listening to what we talked about, that it's going to cost me a lot. What if I do this and I invest and I raise salaries and I do things and I build culture and I go all in and people still leave. And that's a very valid question. So yes, there's a real cost to building culture. How can a solid culture help solve the retention crisis?

Amber Christoferson So, I think there's like a certain vulnerability that a culture requires, not just on the part of the leadership, but also on the part of staff as well. Right? So you kind of have to sometimes you have to do something radical, right? Pull all your staff into a room and just say. Hey, like, I want you to help me with this, like, let's, you know, have at it, you know, make a dark game out of it. I don't know, but it is important. And I'm glad you made that analogy because I used to work at Pandora media. Like I said, they did have a cake on tap. They had, you know, all the free food and all the things, and that was great and fine. But there were some definite flaws in the culture, especially within certain departments that kind of had a departure from that. And it kind of done. It didn't matter. Right. Those things were just kind of nice to have. But those aren't necessary to to have a culture where people want to want to stay and want to do good work. So there's three elements of fit that we look for when we recruit talent into an organization, and that's professional acumen, culture fit and mission alignment. And so if in any one position within an organization, someone is not, does not have the professional acumen to do the role, if someone is not a culture fit, meaning. So we work with a lot of ministries, right. So, you know, there's a lot of prayer and devotion during meetings. There's a way in which conflict is handled that's very different than the secular world. So or there's, you know, other work cultures that are a little more progressive. So the culture fit is really important. So if someone's not a culture fit, that's already, you know, kind of a, an, an issue before they even get started. And then the mission alignment piece, how many people are there? I mean, this is, you know, for good work, we all have a mission. And that's what I think unites us in our work. So number one, I would kind of say within every single position, within organization, if those three aren't aren't evident, you're going to have a culture issue, you're going to have a retention issue because people aren't where they need to be from a positioning standpoint. But there may not be in the right organization. And that's something that a leader can put in place just in ways of hiring, right? In terms of how do you make a culture good, I, you know, or how do you make it what it needs to be to retain you ask people, you kind of go to people and say, I don't have all the answers, but I really want to know. You stay curious and you stay listening. So again, you know, and sometimes you just ask your question as to like, why do they think I would imagine that this, that this report that we did when we asked them to answer these questions about themselves, I kind of wonder how it left the respondents feeling right. Like, did they kind of finish that and go, You know, I'm so curious to see what I think lines up. Do they even care? You know, so open communication and transparency, I think, are going to be the antidote to making this culture shift for the good happen. So I think sometimes it just means slowing down and asking yourself the right questions.

David Schwab I like that I think you've kind of touched on where that part, where I want to go for the next part of our conversation and flip from thinking about this from the leaders perspective. And let's look at this from the professional perspective and the employee perspective. And something I really want to talk about is almost how to build a nonprofit career. Because one of the things that I despise seeing is brilliant, talented, passionate people that have no choice but to leave the for good sector to go to the for profit sector. And we've talked a lot about retention from a leadership perspective, how to build culture, how to invest in people, how to make people want to continue to be part of the mission. But let's flip the script in and talk about it from the nonprofit, professional perspective. How do I build a career in the for good sector that allows me to grow, that allows me to advance, but also stay in the sector?

Amber Christoferson It's a good question. As someone who went from the for good sector into the for profit sector, right, like I kind of couldn't answer that question for myself anymore, not from the seat of where I was. And and granted, you know, my last role in in the for good sector was not a positive experience. It was kind of that toxic culture you spoke of, and it was a leader who led from kind of self-interest as opposed to kind of the greater good. And I couldn't see another way. I was quite honestly had a little bit of PTSD, and I was exhausted. And in that role, along with those things, was, you know, a requirement to be able to pull a rabbit out of a hat. Right? So I would say, when you are considering what. Your reasons are for wanting to make an exit. Like really reflecting on what would that require of a for good organization for you to be able to kind of meet the the goals that you want to or to be able what is what is a thriving environment look like for you? So what I see a lot, when people are looking to make a career shift, I don't see enough, candidates interviewing their prospective employer. And one thing. And and there's very good reason for that. A very good reason for that. I have to remind my clients all the time, this is much is much of a vetting is it is a recruitment. So we're recruiting this person like you're what's the sizzle for them right. Like it's not just about like what makes this person so great. Why should we choose them. It's why should they choose us. And then candidates should be asking questions that kind of speak to what type of environment do they thrive in when they're most energized in their work? What are they doing and are they stepping into an opportunity that that offers those, those things? So I think part of it comes at the matchmaking point of of starting a career in a new organization is doing a little bit more due diligence and kind of researching that organization, doing some backdoor references on the organization, not just the organization on the candidate. That's something I think is huge, but I think looking out a little bit more for themselves, I think we're wired in these roles to want to do good for others, and we kind of tend to take ourself out of that equation. It's kind of like the sacrificial lamb a little bit, right? Like to be a nonprofit, you don't make a, you know, you don't get rich working in nonprofit. How many times we heard that and but that you are, you know, making an equitable wage, but also that you're entering into an environment where you can thrive and you're entering into a position where you're set up for success. If this has been a revolving door, there's a reason why, and they haven't figured it out, and you're going to be the next one to go through it. So just on the front end, doing a little bit more research and vetting of your own. And then I would say, if you're in that place where I was, you know, where I just felt like I just had to get out. Yeah, I just had to go. And it was and, you know, and I just it wasn't nonprofit for me. You know, I, I just think before making a rash decision, kind of doing some of that self-reflection and saying, what am I really needing right now? You know, and some of it may have everything to do with with where you're at, maybe not any longer being the right fit for you. But I will say, I've seen such positive shifts and changes in the nonprofit space, in the ministry space. So I think really good positive change is happening. More voices like yours, David, in your podcast and, you know, reports like this getting out there into the marketplace and kind of stirring up and getting the right conversation going are all things in the positive direction. So go back to why you got into nonprofit in the first place. You know, what is it that that drove you to that and let that be your guiding force for, you know, whatever your next step is and it may not be staying where you're at, that may not be the right place for you at this point in this season of your life. But there is so much good out there. Start doing good for yourself. Don't overlook your own needs and where you thrive and succeed. You know as you're making those decisions, whether you stay in the for good sector where you are, or whether you go into the for profit.

David Schwab One of the things, core things you're talking about here, it's been a theme that's come up multiple times, with recent podcast guests. Truly Adonia is really long. It's being bold and as a for good professional, having a little bit of an edge and a little bit of a, an ego and being confident in who we are, whether you're knocking on a door for a six figure gift or in this case, taking the next big step in your for good career, it's knowing that you are valuable and you deserve a seat at the table. And I think that's so critical in something, particularly when we're looking at our own careers where we're like, well. I can't. I can't over ask or I don't want to create any friction in this process because they'll just go with someone else. But so much of that attitude and so much of that mindset eeks into the way we deliver on the role were hired to. And so one of the things that I'm hearing is throughout the process as a candidate, advocate for yourself. Burnout is a very real thing, even if the culture is great and the role you're in was originally the perfect role for you. People change and burnout is a very real thing, and you may need to make a change and that's okay. Or when you are making a change or you are looking for your next role, it is okay to advocate for yourself. We do not have to fall on our sword or sacrifice what we deserve as professionals just to work in this space. So I think that's so critical. As we're looking at this now, you're going to have such a unique perspective here. I think it's going to be really valuable. We're going to people listening to this podcast who are fresh in their career or manager mid, mid manager level nonprofit, or for good professionals who have an I and like I want to be a director level. I want to be at the in the VP seat or the C-suite at some point. Like I want to be a four good sector leader, but I don't know what my next big step is. So Amber is you're sitting with executive directors, president CEOs, and crafting job descriptions and looking at talent as people are thinking like, hey, what's the next step in my career? What do I need to be doing now? So I'm ready to take that step into a director role, or I'm ready to step up into that vice president or C-suite role. What are those traits, characteristics, and capabilities that are in demand right now? And you see being in demand in the future?

Amber Christoferson Yeah. So I think always be learning. Keep yourself in a place of learning. So whether you like to read books or you like to listen to podcasts, you know, find some that really that speak to you and help stretch you and grow you in your thinking. Because a lot of times, the skill set that's so needed and is one that I think it has to develop in somebody, I think we all can get there, but being able to take a vision and strategically implement towards that vision. So strategy, if you're listening us and you're like, oh, I don't really feel like I'm very strong and strategy at all, or I haven't really had opportunities to kind of speak into strategy. That is an area to kind of look into and say, actually, how have I been strategic in my day to day? We all are. We just don't always if we don't kind of have a strategic like if you look at Cliftonstrengths, right, or any of these assessments of strategy is not in your top five, it doesn't mean you're not strategic and you can't do it. You're just doing it in a in a different way. But so it's kind of vision and strategy being able to a lot of times leaders are very visionary. Then when you try to take a vision of an organization and then figure out how in a development capacity, how do we ladder up to that, you know, what is the North star of this of our team? Where are we all trying to go? And then how do we implement strategy towards that. So that's just that's a skill set that is so needed in specifically development positions that has been overlooked. It's like if we can just get someone in who can come in, meet with the donors and raise the money will be good. Okay. But what if there is a shift in how we communicate to those donors? What if there is a shift in giving between one segment and another? What if you know which those things do happen all the time. So having a strategic lens into how to maneuver in this ever changing kind of philanthropic environment we're in, that is a huge, huge piece. And I would actually put that number one. And number two simultaneously is also relationship building. So that's another thing I want to gouge my eye out with a pen or some sharp object for time. I hear someone say, well, well, they bring their Rolodex, right? And my response is, would you want them to take their Rolodex with them when they leave here? Probably not. It's not about a Rolodex. It's about relationship. Right. So it kind of those two things are imperative also for strong leadership in a nonprofit setting. So I would say, like, those are two key things that we know that relationships are first and the byproduct of rule. It doesn't mean you shouldn't have proposals and assets and things of that nature. But if you don't have a relationship, you haven't earned the right to ask somebody. Then the byproduct of that may be a struggling, struggling development program. So I would say strategy, relationship building, and I would say boldnesss. I really would. I think that's a great word, because we have to be bold in how we tackle the challenges of today, right? Like whether it be inflation, whether it be how donors want to be engaged, how they, you know, want to be community, all of these things. You know, when you are bold and you have that confidence, it's to say, hey, we're going to get we're going to get this right, and we're going to keep testing and trying and to take risk, you kind of have to be bold. What I'm seeing these days, and in all levels of nonprofit organizations is if you're not bold, you're not moving. You're kind of stagnant and stuck. And I have seen, when it comes to career progression in nonprofit or when I look at my candidates and who I've placed over the last year, it was the ones that were bold and kind of a little bit unstoppable. How do you get bold? I think it goes back to the last question. You really tune in to why you're here in this in the first place, and know that you are you know, you are incredibly valuable to to the mission of doing good that you have a lot to offer and a lot to bring to the table in that regard, and that you lead with that, you lead with that and that you're not afraid to make mistakes. And I think that comes with boldness. You know, you're going to take some risks. You're going to have some failures, but that's what's going to catapult you basically into, you know, kind of the next the next level, if you will, if you don't try and you kind of shrink back, your opportunity for moving forward is going to be, you know, slim.

David Schwab Yeah. So, so important. Here is the distinction that I think we all default to to what you're saying is when I'm looking at my next opportunity, when I'm thinking about what's next for me in my career, whether an internal move or an external move, I go, what do I need to be able to do? Do I need to learn Salesforce? Do I need to learn HubSpot? Do I need to learn this platform or advertising? Or that platform, or that thing? None of the desirable traits of a leader in the Ford sector right now have anything to do with functional capability and have everything to do with interpersonal skills, and I think that those things are going to be what stand the test of time, because platforms are going to change, technology is going to advance, and we're never going to keep up, no matter how hard we try. But the things that will never change is the value of being able to be to build interpersonal relationships and lead with empathy. And that's what I heard is those fundamental traits of the leaders you're looking for today and expect to see tomorrow. So I think that's so critical. Amber, this has been, a fantastic conversation. I think we made a dent in the retention crisis. I don't think we're not going to. Obviously not solving it in one episode, but I think it's the start of a really critical conversation that's going to take place. And I thank you for joining us. Getting the year started with this important conversation, and I expect to have many more like it the rest of this year and beyond. So thank you again for your time really quickly as we wrap, if anyone here listening is like, hey, I really want to connect with Amber. I'm looking for a new job and I want to see if she has anything available or we need. Hey, we're actually we're listening right now and we need to hire a new development director. Maybe we can work with Amber or just to to learn from you. Where's a great way for people to reach out and engage with you?

Amber Christoferson Definitely. LinkedIn is fantastic. So Amber Christofferson, that's what the C.H. and and Christie and I'm not a pH. But yeah, reach out on LinkedIn or you can always send an email. I would love to hear from anybody who is either looking to make a move or interested in a search. But also, I just got a curiosity about how this lands with leaders. And so I'm going to be staying tuned to to David, your networks and everything as well, because we've delivered this information and webinar and podcast, environments where we don't get to see, you know, or engage with people on the content of it. But, you know, it's such critical and I think long overdue information that I just want to get in a room and we've got sessions. Yeah. All about, you know, how they feel about it and what that kind of like brings up for them. So yeah, reach out if you want to, you know, chat or if you have something you know, that I can help with. But LinkedIn or email either one. And I think you guys are.

David Schwab We'll link to both of the we are willing to your profile and include your email in the show notes. So anyone listening check out the show notes. You can reach out to Amber directly there. Thank you Amber again for your time. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. So please join us in this conversation. We'll be carrying it over LinkedIn and many other channels. But please, as you listen to this, engage in this conversation, because this is such an important trend for our sector to help us be ready to take on everything that's facing us. We have so many headwinds against us and the victory against these headwinds. It's not strategic. It's not tactical. It starts with people and it starts with relationships. And that's what we talked about a lot here today. So join us in this conversation. Let's help every organization be successful this year. Thank you again Amber.

Amber Christoferson Thank you.

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